Perspectives on Tunnels and Trolls Publishing

It’s nearing the end of the year, and when better to put things in perspective? Many perspectives in relation to Tunnels and Trolls (T&T) are being voiced these days, so let me jump in here, too.

First, it is not easy to design, develop, debug, test, and maintain a game like UGH. For those who don’t know, the “UGH Monsters Attack!” game is an online game using 7th Edition Tunnels and Trolls rules as I interpret them, with a few embellishments of my own creation to make the game work as an online game. I have spent literally hundreds of hours on this game since its initial appearance during the “creative UGHs” contest on Trollhalla. Some of you from Trollhalla may recall that contest. It was for creatively saying “UGH” on the Trollhalla wall. I went rogue and creatively said “UGH” with the creation of a prototype for an online T&T game featuring the UGH monsters. It has evolved into much more than a prototype since.

If I had done the same work for a paying customer, I would have received thousands of US dollars for the UGH project so far. For work equivalent to my most recent updates, I would have been paid in excess of $500. And if you consider that I worked on the game on Thanksgiving day, a holiday for me, and factor in holiday pay rates, I would have been paid even more. Even at the rate of $10 per hour, which is quite low for this kind of work, especially during the holidays, I’d have earned over $150 for my update to the game this weekend.

Of course, neither Ken St. Andre, the author of Tunnels and Trolls and holder of the copyright, nor Rick Loomis, owner of the trademark, want to pay this kind of money for an online T&T game. Neither of them contracted me to create it to begin with, so neither are obligated to pay me anything, of course. Ken has asked for a few tweaks here and there, sometimes asking for things that he doesn’t quite realize how difficult it is to do or what consequences those changes will have. And he usually gives me a few TGP when I make such changes.

For the uninitiated: TGP = “Troll Glory Points.” TGP are spent in Trollhalla, much like adventure points in the T&T game, to increase the attributes of your avatar in Trollhalla. Higher attributes in Trollhalla allow you to go to the Armory—another piece of my handiwork—and equip bigger, better weapons. Then you can log into my UGH game and make use of your attributes and weapons to fight the UGH monsters. Without my UGH game, there’s not much else you can do with your attributes and weapons in Trollhalla other than playing play-by-email games with Ken and one or two other game masters who have taken the time to run such games. These games run at a rate determined by the game master, and do well to process one turn per day. In comparison, players of the UGH game can play it on their own schedule and as often as they want, provided they have the required internet access.

TGP can’t be spent outside of Trollhalla. They don’t make my standard of living in the real world better. Any time I might spend working on UGH (or other T&T projects) could be better spent on projects that at least have a chance of making my life better. There is such a thing as freely devoting a portion of one’s time and effort to things of which one is a huge fan—and this is why I have spent the time that I have without payment or expectation thereof on T&T projects in the past. But there should be some form of payoff for anything in which a person invests this much time and effort. The economics of today demand it more than ever.

So I thought I would spend some time publishing print products. Some of you know of my efforts with the speculative fiction anthologies, but those have nothing to do with T&T, and will succeed or fail on their own merits. As regards T&T, I have a lot of my own hand-written material to draw on for print products. I initially thought to publish a few of my T&T adventures. I have one entitled “Champion of Law” for which I have typed all the paragraphs into the computer, including a multi-page Magic Matrix. It’s over 300 paragraphs. It still needs to be playtested, and it needs some artwork, but the first draft is finished, and that was a major accomplishment.

But I am concerned about intellectual property issues. I’m not the kind of person that just ignores all the laws and does whatever I want because the owners of the trademark and copyright can’t afford to come after me or because there is some debate about whether they still own the trademark or copyright.

So I tried to work out a deal with Rick, but Rick has what I consider delusions about the worth of the T&T trademark, and he also asked for too much creative control. Rick told me that someone to whom he once gave a license produced T&T Nazi material, and now he’s afraid to give free creative reign to others. One bad apple…

There is such a thing as “fair use” or “nominative use” of a trademark. But the law in that regard is highly subjective, and each case is different. It’s better to have a signed contract.

If I were careful, I might find a suitable way to make “nominative use” of the T&T trademark to identify the game system for which my adventures and supplements are created. I might state something along the lines of “For use with the Tunnels and Trolls role playing game” on the covers of my books. Inside my books I might also state, “Tunnels and Trolls is a trademark of Flying Buffalo Inc and is used without permission. This publication is not authorized by, associated with, or sponsored by Flying Buffalo Inc.” That would go a long way to making sure my use of the T&T trademark is “nominative.”

But if this is done too often, “overuse” of the T&T trademark on the covers of several of my books might cause consumers to associate my books with Flying Buffalo Inc or to associate the T&T trademark with Eposic rather than Flying Buffalo Inc. How many (non-Trollhalla) consumers out there now think that T&T is a trademark of Outlaw Press?

Even if the trademark issue were a non-issue, there is still the question of copyright infringement when producing T&T related products. I know Ken has stated publicly on Trollhalla that it’s okay with him for Trollhalla members to publish T&T-related products. His statement was generic, without bounds. But who thinks his statement would allow anyone to publish verbatim copies of the official rules? I certainly don’t think it extends that far. So how far does it extend? Can we publish solos that include a long list of spell names in Magic Matrices? I would bet that’s okay, because it’s a standard practice in T&T solos. Can we publish the complete list of first level spells and their descriptions? This would be useful to players of our adventures who haven’t yet purchased the official rules. How about an abbreviated equipment list, with the specs for each item in the list? How about the descriptions of the three basic character types? How about the attribute factors for a few key kindreds? There are many things like this that a publisher might want to include in a product, to better market the product. “No other rules books necessary” is a powerful marketing tool. But it also means that buying a copy of the T&T rules becomes optional at that point, which is not in Ken’s best interests. So how much can be read into Ken’s statement for others to do what they will?

What is needed is a Standard Reference Document (SRD) that publishers of T&T-related products can rely on using in their products if they abide by the open gaming license for the SRD. But Ken has said more than once that he didn’t think an SRD was a good option and reported that Rick didn’t want it, either. Ken could create one without Rick if he wanted. In any case, the SRD would need to be marketed under a trademark other than T&T, and I don’t know how Ken feels about that. He’s invested a lot in the T&T name. And such a move might affect his friendship with Rick. These are only some of the reasons I can think of why Ken is reluctant. Maybe respect for Rick has made other T&T fans reluctant, too. It’s questionable how many people would become involved in developing an SRD if a serious attempt were made now.

If we had an SRD, it could state all the disclaimers and legal statements about Flying Buffalo’s non-involvement or support of the SRD. All other products that use the SRD would state that they make use of the SRD, and would not mention T&T. Thus, there would be no possible case for “overuse” of the T&T trademark. Once people became aware of the SRD and its associated trademark, they would understand the association between T&T and products based on the SRD. For instance, if you see a game marketed as a d20 game, do you think of any other game with which it’s compatible?

It would take a great deal of effort to create an SRD for an open gaming version of T&T. One couldn’t just start copying bits and pieces from the official T&T rules without Ken’s permission. Even with Ken on board, publishing any kind of complete, coherent, well-organized set of game rules can not be accomplished in a few days or weeks. And trying to produce something that would be suitable for all interested parties becomes increasingly difficult as more parties become interested. (There are at least two T&T camps already: those who prefer 5.x and those who prefer 7.x. And there might be some who prefer 6th edition.)

So is there a future which might include an SRD for T&T? Realistically, I don’t think so.

The option I am considering now is to create my own game system. I am considering making this game system compatible with T&T to the extent that it is obvious how to easily convert between it and my system. The TAG system from Peryton Publishing is an example of this. And this tactic would support a system with somewhat different game mechanics than T&T. There are some game mechanics of my own design that I’ve made good use of in the past and others of more recent design, and I’d like to publish them.

Would it be useful to me to publish an SRD for my new game? Like Ken and Rick with regards to an SRD for T&T, many people in the game publishing business would say no. I’m still undecided. What do you think?

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7 Comments »

 
  • Michael,
    You state your positions well–you do realize that you have not one position there, but three or four–I lost track.
    I think the Nike model applies. Just do it.
    By now you should know that the Flying Buffalo trademark on Tunnels and Trolls, acquired in 1980 was considered abandoned by the U.S. trademark office in 1982. You also realize that copyright protects the exact wording of something, but not underlying ideas. If I had really wanted to protect T & T from unauthorized use, I would have patented it. Yes, patent. Richard Garfield used patent law to protect Magic. Even that didn’t prevent similar games like Shadowfist from being developed.
    You are not the first to bring up the idea of producing a SRD for Tunnels and Trolls. However, while such a document might give all third party producers legal grounds for doing what they want, I don’t know what it does for Flying Buffalo or me except add an extra expense that we are not willing to pay.
    As far as I am concerned, the various published editions of the Tunnels and Trolls rules are the SRDs for the game. I have always asked other writers to mention that Tunnels & Trolls was originally created by Ken St. Andre, and after that, they can take credit for all their own creativity by copyrighting the material when they publish it. However, I can’t enforce even that much. Not even Flying Buffalo mentions that in every T & T publication.
    While it has been very nice to make a bit of money from T & T over the years, it has never come even close to providing a living income. T & T money is more like the occasional yard sale. The important thing is that T & T provides a lot of fun for me and other players around the world, along with a creative shared world for writing, art, and any other kind of creative endeavor.
    By its basic design T & T is meant to be used for world and adventure building. In some edition I actually stated that the true fun of the game, in my humble opinion, consists of making up new adventures and running them. There is no better fun than creation–especially world creation. If one makes the effort to create a great new adventure, it is perfectly natural to want to publish it and share it with a larger audience. I say do it. Put your own name and copyright notice on it and don’t feel stifled. Cream rises to the top. Crap sinks.

    As for the Ugh monster game, it’s a wonderful little game. It has evolved, sometimes at my suggestion, and sometimes it was all you, Michael. If you were paid for the programming you did for it, it would have netted you thousands of dollars–no doubt about it. But the truth is, neither Rick nor I can afford to pay people for little games that entertain a few dozen people at best. Neither Rick nor I asked you to create the game. Rick is probably unaware that it exists. If it entertained thousands of people we still couldn’t afford to pay for it. What you did, and continue to do, you do of your own free will. You were paid in the only currency available for such efforts–self satisfaction in a job well done, and praise from your players for producing such a neat game. If you want money, take your talents to Hasbro, or Wizards of the Coast, or White Wolf or Microsoft. They have the money to pay people. I don’t.

    Michael, I have gamed with you. You are a wonderful, creative player and game master. I would love to see your T & T ideas published and made available to the entire gaming world. But you have to do it, and do it because you want to do it, not because you’re being paid to do it. Don’t worry about what Rick says or thinks. Certainly Jim Shipman never worried about it. If you want to do things, do them, and this advice goes to all other T & T publishers as well, JUST DO IT!

  • Well, haven’t you almost answered your own question? If you expect or want a community based source of secondary support for your system, a SRD is a very simple and safe to provide a basis for just that. Do you want it?

    In the T&T case it’s been proven that within limits it’s very easy to get permission to post fan stuff online. The big problem there, I’ve gathered, is what happens when money changes hands. If the owner of a game puts too much hindrance in the way of fan support, there will be no fan support. If you want to have a business relationship where someone once again raise hindrances, you will have no support for your product. The latter situation might be understandable if what you get in that relationship isn’t worth it.

    Do you agree that is the safest way to run things? Don’t make a SRD of your own system. Otherwise I see no reason not to.

  • menslar says:

    Okay then, Ken. Now I just need to get some play testers for “Champion of Law.” I bet I can find a couple of willing souls on Trollhalla.

    Thanks for replying here, Ken. And thanks for your feedback, Andreas. For now, I’m putting my own game system indefinitely on hold, and moving forward with producing print and PDF T&T materials. You heard it here first.

    Khayd’haik returns.

  • Great to hear, Mike!

    BTW, Ken. If Jim Shipman did something in a certain way, I’d like to do it the other way. I don’t want to do things his way.

  • Michael, some conversations I’ve had with Rick Loomis recently point out some things you should put in any T & T supplemental projects you may produce. On the back of the title page, put something like “intended for use with Tunnels and Trolls”. Copyright the product in your own name. Don’t say a thing about trademark. Don’t mention Flying Buffalo. You don’t have their permission to do this work, and you don’t need it. If you’re interested in some cross promotion, I’ll be happy to blog or write an intro for anything you do even remotely connected with T & T. If you need artists, ask me, or ask Trollhalla. We have some very fine artists in our group: Ramsen Triton, Ea, Quoghmyre, Moonwolf, and I know a few others who would give you good stuff for a reasonable fee. I’ll be eager to see what you produce.

  • A lawyer note, which I realize is tangential to the discussion at best:

    Ken mentioned protecting Tunnels & Trolls via patent. I do not think that a patent application for T&T along the lines of the Magic: The Gathering patent would succeed. Richard Garfield got a patent for the “collectible card game method of play;” this is not just a different word for copyrighting or trademarking the material. It means that the Patent Office was willing to treat the game mechanic of using collectible cards to simulate resources, etc., etc., as a protectible mechanism just like a purely mechanical invention. Anyone using that method of play is using Garfield’s patent, and has to pay up. Method of play patents are rarely granted, and few people thought Garfield would get one. But he did. He could have prevented the development of similar games, but I don’t think that was ever his goal.

    I don’t think the patent would work for T&T because (and I mean no offense here) the pen & paper fantasy role-play method of play is not original to T&T. As far as I know, Dungeons & Dragons did it first, and TSR would be the only ones who could have sought a patent on the method of play. I don’t know if they ever tried, but I don’t think they ever got one if they did.

    Also, a patent is only a temporary exclusionary right that the government grants to inventors in exchange for disclosing the workings of their invention to the public. So any T&T patent would likely be expired now anyway.

    So I think what you are left with on T&T is copyrighting your text (which happens automatically, of course) and registering the marks.

  • menslar says:

    Thanks for the comment, Michael. I’ve often wondered about patents for games and whether you could get a patent for some particular type of dice roll mechanic that hadn’t been used in other games before. It feels wrong to patent something like that, and I’d assumed it would be difficult to do, otherwise game companies would be patenting their specific game mechanics and not allowing other game companies to use those same mechanics in their games. Like patenting DARO (doubles add and roll over), for instance, to determine the degree to which an action in a roleplaying game succeeds.

    Could you imagine someone being allowed to patent the process of rolling dice to determine outcomes in a game? Would that mean that no one else could have a game that uses dice? That would be a bummer. I’m glad those kinds of patents are not allowed.

 

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